in my mind, the fundamental question revolves around the earth’s gifts, and of the sustainability of the usage and/or removal of those treasures. our current system involves “property rights” whereby a piece of land can be owned, and whatever is above and below it can be utilized in any way (within culturally accepted guidelines).

someone can own land and be a careful and faithful steward, and someone else can wreak havoc and remove minerals and destroy it for any other uses.

the issue, typically, is that:

1. there is no accountability for destruction that impacts “everyone” (i.e. air pollution)

2. the future costs of any destruction or pollution are not factored into the cost of the value of anything removed from the land.

i love the idea of everyone living together without ownership and there being a gifting culture. i understand how we are all connected, at an energetic, conscious and spiritual level.

however, the issue i find with all utopian systems are that they don’t seem to have ways of dealing with humans when they don’t act in a utopian fashion, but instead exemplify the darker side we see manifest itself on a regular basis.

the primary value of government and of any economic system, is to provide both freedom and protection. freedom to enjoy the “fruits” of ones labor with the protection to enjoy those same “fruits.”

ownership, mostly equates to usage. this makes sense to me. if i occupy a house, vs. rent a house vs. own a house, i have use.

but if 1,5,20,50,100 people decide they would be best served by sleeping in the bed i call my own, where do i sleep? at some point the desires of another infringe on my desires.

while i understand this issue stems from the concept of scarcity, at some level we seem to be living in a quantifiable, scarce world. the number of mattresses that have been made in the world is a finite number. the sun that shines upon us and provides so much of the earth’s energy has a finite duration (even if it feels infinite). I accept that there may be ways in the spiritual/energy realm where matter can be created from an idea, but until that can be seen/done by the multitudes, it feels silly to build a world around what could be, but isn’t.

i really want to understand how this system can work, and i would love to replace my idea that the constitutional framework that was envisioned by the US founding fathers is not the closest we have yet come to a system that takes the best of both sides into account.

thanks!

Quote: .” Imagine if there was no money. Right now. No money. Everything would still be there, wouldn’t it?”

I open my book that way, very close to that!

I know how Charles Darwin felt when he got the letter from Alfred Russell Wallace about Natural Selection. I will repeat what Darwin said in a letter back to Wallace: “Your very words stand as my chapter headings!”

Beautiful! Maybe this is an idea whose time has come. It won’t be easy, not at all, because the wealthy will know what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the COMPLETE DESTRUCTION of their political power. Totally.

It will be resisted, and force will be used if this catches on too much. Where wealth goes, so goes power, and that power will not go quietly into the night…

About The Venus Project, there’s a chap that hasn’t lost the spirit of idealism in his older days. He’s 95.

And me? I’m 45, and only growing younger….

As far as how we present it, we will get much further in a Capitalist country wrapping it up a bit more – as some have called it when I told them about it – as the Ultimate Capitalism, WITHOUT the capital, that is, in the ability to possess “things”. Humans are greedy by nature, and however you may feel about it, that had evolutionary survival value. Now, it’s more of a hinderence.

And as far as the young -I don’t know how old you are – but I heard a strange echo from the past. Really. The 1960′s. The Chicago 7, Abbie Hoffman. Off the pigs, Resist authority, the whole smear. WE WERE THE FIGHTERS AGAINST THIS SYSTEM. We were there, first.

And now?

WE BECAME THE SYSTEM WE FOUGHT. Never think it can’t happen again. Idealism dies with youth most of the time.. That is a major reason why we must be careful HOW we “sell” this.

Wait until those young people are in their ’50′s and ’60′s. You’ll see, although I probably won’t.

The Venus Project. I MUST look closer at that…

And I think I have to take a closer look at Marx’s work. I’ve only browsed so far.

I agree about the ‘selling’ notion of RBE, even though I don’t agree that we have to wrap this in any ‘capitalistic’ wrapping. The arguments of how the monetary system is totally failing is a good basis, I would say. Further, the idea of non-ownership, I really don’t think is that problematic. Especially not among the new generation, where most doesn’t own anything at all when they are young, and find it perfectly ok to be a user of what they need. Ownership and property (both physical, intellectual and artistic) are the main building blocks of capitalism. So to hold on to any of those is to hold on to some kind of capitalism if you ask me.

Besides, young people today are less occupied with property and ownership, growing up in a co-creating Wikipedia world and where artistic and intellectual property is constantly challenged online. It is mostly the old generation, the ones who run the record companies and film studios that hold on to the property mindset.

It’s interesting you have this concept. I first conceived it when I was 8 years old – back in 1954 – which, I know, is telling my age. (HAHA!!) I agree with most of it, but have not had time to read the entire site.

I would point out one thing I think is important -and which you have addressed – the question of ownership. I understand what you are saying about using but not really owning -but that is simply, I think, dangerous hair-splitting that will turn the average person off to the idea.

Private ownership is KEY to most peoples self-esteem and feelings of security. This is not an idea -an intellectual concept – that can exist in a vaccum IF you ever have any hope of seeing it realized. How this is SOLD is important.

For instance, I have FINALLY started a book on this which has the working title “Capitalism without Capital.” That is, to create a system that would function much like Capitalism -AKA ownership Capitalism- and would be an ownership based on VALUE. The coin of the realm, as I present it, is Knowledge Value, Labor Value, and Use Value. When you labor, that is YOUR payment for whatever you need or want. And people want to “possess” something.

The fact it will wear out, be thrown away, or used up – and focusing on that as not really owning- is guaranteed to get you labeled a Communist, Socialist -etc. I know, because I’ve been accused of being that. By the way have YOU ever read any of the works of Karl Marx? If not, you should, especially “The Communist Manifesto”, and even more than that, “Das Kapitalist” The first time I read them I was FLOORED by how close Marx came to predicting exactly where we find ourselves, today.

What did he say? THIS: (Das Kapitalist”); “The only way a Global economy can succeed is the Capitalist MUST destroy his own middle-class.” Do we not see that happening today? Or this one by Lenin – and I get a kick out of it – “The Capitalist will sell us the rope with which we SHALL HANG THEM.” And I always like to add, “That proved only half right… we not merely sold them the rope – thinking of China – we GAVE them the whole damn business of making it.”

Another thought or two for now, and then I must go. I appreciate your religious convictions and respect them, although I do not share them. I like to say I am a “born again” Agnostic, and an equal pain in the rear to all religions, not just yours. In fact, I have often thought ANY truly religious person of ANY major World Religion should by their nature favor the type of system you and I have “found.” And the fact my Agnosticism makes me skeptical of a Golden Hereafter actually motivates ME to try to make the one life we know of as best as possible for all people, and all life.

While I know many WILL like it because of those beliefs, there will be the inevitable squabbles, and labels of “Religious Kooks” by those who differ from you.. Again, this is an idea we are trying to sell… the presentation of that idea, for the widest possible appeal, is KEY to it happening.

I will be reading around your site as time permits, but probably not posting too much. I have an “intellectual property” to protect, a publisher already interested, and I’m sure he would take a dim view of my saying too much online.

I just wanted to congratulate you on your insight, and say keep up the good work. Now if YOU want to contact me, personally, by email, and you have access to the one I signed in under, by all means please do so.

Again, GOOD THINKING!

Blue Indy

world is paying 80 trillion $ annual interest and its annual product is just 60 trillion $… to whom is the whole world working for? we must end all kinds of interest-based systems… money is not created to be sold… money can not be sold… if you have money make a real business or be a partner with someone who has a real business working for real things for humanity… earning by selling money is the root of all evils in this world… its the basics and cause of humanities slavery to just 1%.

the world needs “equalistic united humanity order” euho , we should start stopping all kind of interest in all world. interest is prohibited in all belief on the earth. we unite to stop interest based economic,social activities as humans and by this way we start destroying capitalism enslaving system over humanity.

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